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Hvad er der galt med ateisme?

 

Filosofi, Etik & Religion

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ZenGudindeBambi
Forum-indlæg: 243
Område: Sydjylland
Dato: 6/12 2012 17:07



TIP:

HUSK NU AT UDDYBE <3
SÅ LORTEHULLET KAN FORSTØRRES :(
SNÆVERTSYNETHED ER GODT ;)

</3 SATAN FINDES IKKE I DETALJERNE JO ;)

:P

Easy/IAS
Forum-indlæg: 436
Område: KBH
Dato: 6/12 2012 17:18 | Indlæg redigeret den: 6/12 2012 17:41

Bambi: Jeg ved sku ikke hvem Gud eller Satan er ;) mine links var kun for at provokere :)

Gider sku ikke at spekulere i det -- det er mit liv for kort til --
ej heller at uddybe
Syg lort at bruge energi på

AMEN
Easy/IAS
Forum-indlæg: 436
Område: KBH
Dato: 6/12 2012 17:24 | Indlæg redigeret den: 6/12 2012 18:39

Universet - jorden - mennesket - dyrerne - planteriet - osv. er en udvikling
og ikke en skabelse --- hvor svært er det at forstå
Hvor udviklingen udmunder fra -- er mit liv også for kort til at spekulere på
AMEN
Rune Skougaard
Forum-indlæg: 188
Område: Sjælland
Dato: 7/12 2012 07:48

Igen som sagt, er ikke interesseret i at komme i en diskussion om tro imod ateisme, men held og lykke med det.. Jeg er ude af denne tråd. Ærlig talt gider jeg ikke forsvare mig hvorfor at jeg mener at de førnævnte ting giver mening i en spirituel sammenhæng, men det gør det for mig. Og de eksempler du nævner med at man kan pege på forskellige hjerne centre og at de lyser op i forskellige sammenhæng beviser jo ikke noget som helst for eller imod om vi har en sjæl eller ej..

men som sagt, dont bother med at skille flere af mine indlæg ad, jeg er ude af denne tråd og læser ikke med mere.. Men held og lykke med debatten og med at bevise overfor jer selv og andre at tro er noget fjollet noget...



Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/12 2012 08:08 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 08:09

Bare er ting er klare, det var dig, der kom i tråden og begyndte at påstår ting m.h.t., som du senere ikke har kunnet underbygge med fakta.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts.
Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 7/12 2012 14:27 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 15:31

Ka-ching
Jeg mener uden statsateisme. Ateismen var en del af en større ideologi som fik folk til at gøre dumme ting og jeg tror ikke at det har været ateismen der har drevet folk til at begå mord i lande med statsateisme. Det er den samlede kommunistiske/marxistiske ideologi der skal have skylden.

Uh, sorry?! I think you´re being a little selective... Isn´t the belief that there is no God, that "religion is the opium of the people" and that religious people are "crazy", delusional, dangerous at the very heart of Communism and Marxist practise? Aren´t the governments in these regimes atheists employing athiests and enforcing policies to establish atheism which include(d) gulags, re-education, forced psychiatric hospitalisation, imprisonment, confiscation and destruction of property, torture and death to limit or destroy religious believers and their communities? By the way, these atheists also rejected the Big Bang Theory when it first came to light because it was "too clerical"! Lemaitre was a Belgian Catholic priest...

It seems that when it comes to religion, it is okay to pick the lowest denominator, the weakest link, the greatest injustice or stupidity carried out by a particuliar group or groups as the measure of all religion(s), and claim that such behaviour is the result of belief in God. It also seems that the when it comes to atheism, it is not okay to pick the lowest denominator, the weakest link, the greatest injustice or stupidity carried out by a particuliar group or groups as the measure of all atheism, or claim that such behaviour is the result of non-belief in God. That smacks of hypocrisy, double-standards, irresponsibility and dishonesty.

The atheists of whom I speak above have reeked unbelievable violence and havoc on millions of people in the Soviet Union, Cambodia, Mexico, Cuba, Colombia, Korea, Poland, China, Vietnam and elsewhere. The violence and attacks on basic human rights are still going on in certain parts of the world today even as I write (China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba...)

I can personally vouch for the fact that we have had sisters sent to Siberia, imprisoned, “re-educated”, beaten and tortured, were driven out of their homes and into hiding, and had their schools, churches and hospitals stolen from them or flattened for no other “crime” than being believers and for quietly sheltering the orphaned and homeless, educating women and children and nursing the sick, believer and non-believer. I also know about many, many others who suffer(ed) the same fate...

I wish atheists had the decency and the honesty to acknowledge this dark side of atheism, instead of disowning it... Extremisn is to be found in every camp. It is part of human nature...

Frankly, it sends shivers up my spine to hear aggressive atheists talk about believers as crazy, delusional, fanatic, stupid, dangerous, etc... It sends shivers up my spine to see aggressive atheists trying to limit the rights of others to live peacefully according to their convictions (as in happening in several Western countries). It sends shivers up my spine to read some of the vitriol, lies slander and hate which is posted so freely on the internet with regard to religion (VK being no exception). I can also add that I have had someone chime at my door to tell me about the “truth of atheism” who engaged in very aggressive verbal insult.

I shudder to think where such aggression might ultimately take us...

My point here is not to attack atheists or to say that all atheism is bad. I don´t think that. I have friends and family members who are atheists. I have work colleagues who are atheists. It doesn´t bother me as I see them for who they are: decent human beings with whom I happen to disagree (strongly) on a few (important) issues.

I actually find the theme of this thread distasteful, ill-informed, unconstructive and polemical. I am not interested in putting non-believers and unbelievers up against each other. Neither do I believe in the dualism, the artificial split which some atheists try to make between science, reason and faith. I have already stated why on other VK threads so I am not going to waste time arguing here. I see no point...

I DO believe that if atheists are going to condemn religion(s) and believers en messe, they should have the decency and the honesty to examine their own back-yards. Justice and honesty require that they do so... :)













Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/12 2012 14:38

Still waiting for all these spottings of fanatical atheists?

I was kinda thinkin' we would at least hear about one embassy being burned down or tales of battery acid being thrown on the innocent.

I guess I just have to keep waiting. Just seems that with the huge number of unbelievers in the world, something would turn up in the news...
ChiZhai
Forum-indlæg: 292
Område: KBH
Administrator
Dato: 7/12 2012 14:41

Still waiting for all these spottings of fanatical atheists?

Reminded me of this tweet by Ricky Gervais :)

Ka-ching
Forum-indlæg: 83
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 7/12 2012 14:52 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 15:04

Earthling
Jeg siger ikke at ateister ikke kan gøre forfærdelige ting, men det er ikke selve ateismen der får dem til at gøre det. Onde mennesker der er ateister vil selvfølgelig udføre handlinger, men jeg mener ikke at ateisme i samme grad får ellers gode mennesker til at udføre onde handlinger som religion gør. Ateister skærer fx ikke i små børn eller stener utro kvinder til døde bare fordi der står i en bog at de skal gøre det. Jeg synes det er vigtigt at skelne mellem ateisme som bare er fraværet af tro på guder, ånder, spøgelser osv. og ateisme plus ideologier som marxisme. Ateisme i sig selv er ikke farligt.
Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 7/12 2012 14:54 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 20:55

Jeff, did you even read my comment?!

Your blanket denial of the evil being carried out by some atheists is appalling - and not even vaguely funny. I am really losing respect for you these days...

You´re a smart boy, Try googling about violence and repression in the countries I mention. I see no reason to do your dirty work for you. On no, I forgot, the news may not reach the mainline media because of censorship, no freedom of the press, imprisonment and torture of dissidents, and the bias of certain Western elements...



EDIT
Ka-ching

Jeg synes det er vigtigt at skelne mellem ateisme som bare er fraværet af tro på guder, ånder, spøgelser osv. og ateisme plus ideologier som marxisme. Ateisme i sig selv er ikke farligt.

Sorry. I was a bit brusque earlier. I didn´t read your remark properly... I agree that there are various forms of atheism. I never said otherwise. My complaint is that your openng remark is divisive, and inaccurate. My complaint is also about atheists who lump all religion together without distinction while expecting believers to disitnguish between the different forms of atheism...

PS: You will find the idea that "religion is the opium of the people" in Karl Marx´s writings, just as you will find the claims about religion in atheist propaganda if you take the trouble to look it up. Why, you don´t even need to go to Russia, China or elsewhere. Read Harris, Dawkins and a few others, or check out a few threads around VK.


Anyway, I´m off. You guys only seem interested in denial. I have no time for it.



Easy/IAS
Forum-indlæg: 436
Område: KBH
Dato: 7/12 2012 15:33 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 15:58

Uanset om der står ateist eller kristen på vores ryg - fortæller det ikke
om vi er et godt menneske som burde være emnets kernepunkt
Jeg har f.eks. selv brugt mange penge på at hjælpe andre i nød
Og har prøvet flere gange at blive røvrendt af en kristen (pinseven) som jeg troede var
en god ven - som jeg i dag har vendt ryggen

VI VIL KUN SOM VI SELV VIL -- OG SÅ ER DEN IKKE LÆNGERE

BLIVER NOGEN GANGE ARRIG OVER RABLENDE SKIDE SKØRE MENNESKER
MED DERES GUDDOMMELIGE PIS OG ÆVL SOM JEG IKKE KAN BRUGES TIL EN SKID

AMEN
Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/12 2012 15:58 | Indlæg redigeret den: 17/12 2012 09:08

Earthling,

Let me get this straight. You are asserting that there are people perpetrating evil by following some tenets of atheism (what ever the Hell those would be is beyond me) or by following some proclamations being made on behalf of atheism (what ever the Hell those would be is also beyond me) ?

To be clear, the perpetrators of the things you mention above also may have spoken Russion or Korean, however, I don't associate speaking Russian with atrocities. And to be honest, I also don't belong to those who condemn religion as the root of greed and rape - I realize that those things have nothing to do with religion but rather with people and power per se. Similarly, I don't accept the really rather bogus connection you are making for which you know you have absolutely no systematic evidence for, but rather very generalizable and flimsy circumstantial evidence of no merit.

It is not denial, it is simply my refusal to accept assertions that are not true.

I will actually not deny that the banishing or dismantling of religious institutions has occurred in modern revolutions, however, I am not sure I would see that as evil, just as I actually do not necessarily see it as evil if one religious regime dismantles the institutions of another religion upon gaining power. Evil has to do with something else, at least for me.

I am rather agnostic on this matter (excuse the rather well-applied pun) - I will be pretty frank, I do not believe in the explicit right to practice religion. I believe in the right to be free from coercion due to religious views. In general, if people want to be religious, I find it a shame if it interferes with their judgments, but I am not for abolishing their right to beliefs per se - the right to "practice" certain things is another matter.

Finally, losing your respect is by far less important to me than accepting things that make no sense or are not true and thereby losing respect for myself. You seem able to lecture me on the details of human reproduction and yet at the same time participate in an institution that teaches that this is not the only mechanism for producing human offspring, at least in one case... [Insert Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum... here]



Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 7/12 2012 20:39 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/12 2012 15:03

Jeff
Tenets of (some) atheism? What I said seems pretty clear to me: the belief that there is no God, that "religion is the opium of the people" and that religious people are "crazy", delusional, dangerous... I could have added, stupid... Sound familiar?!

dismantling of religious institutions
= the dismantling of people, ie. oppression, imprisonment, murder; confiscation/destruction of property; restriction/supression of human rights


I don't accept the really rather bogus connection you are making for which you know you have absolutely no systematic evidence for, but rather very generalizable and flimsy circumstantial evidence of no merit
That´s just empty rhetoric on your part. I can easily locate material via several sources. I just don´t see the point of wasting time locating it now in order to try and convince the converted!


However, if you really want reading material with regard to my claim, I recommend the book, "The Rage Against God" by Christopher Hitchens brother, Peter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rage_Against_God

A Review of The Rage Against God. By Peter Hitchens.
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com/2010/06/14/a-review-of-the-rage-against-god-by-peter-hitchens/

The Rage Against God by Peter Hitchens
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/apr/17/rage-against-god-peter-hitchens





Btw, I was not lecturing you on human reproduction. I was actually answering a question posed by someone else on another thread. In that regard, you asked what I considered a stupid question. I answered. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand so using it against me says more about you than it does about me... And of course, the fact that there is a standard means of reproduction - or standard anything - would not impede God from intervening if s/he so wishes... That is the nature of miracles.


You can scoff and use my faith against me if you wish. It just puts you in the same category as a few others around here...


I have nothing further to say. I already stated earlier that my point was not to attack atheists or to say that all atheism is bad... and that I actually find the theme of this thread distasteful, ill-informed, unconstructive and polemical. I am not interested in putting non-believers and unbelievers up against each other.


I would appreciate leaving it at that...



Ka-ching
Forum-indlæg: 83
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 7/12 2012 21:33 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/12 2012 21:39

Jeg har lige indset at statsateisme, hvor religiøse er blevet forfulgt er endnu et eksempel på at tro skaber problemer. Gerningsmændene har ikke været religiøse, men de har været lige så stærke i troen på at verden ville være et bedre sted uden religion, som nogle religiøse er i troen på at der eksisterer et åndeligt univers. Da det er tro der har drevet dem til at begå de fordærdelige handlinger som de har begået er det uretfærdigt at give ateisme skylden.
Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/12 2012 23:28 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/12 2012 10:09

To be clear, atheism is not the belief that there is no god - it is the rejection of belief in gods. I don't really see how that contains any tenets. Tenets are principles or beliefs and to assert that atheism has tenets is actually paradoxical, since atheism does not (logically) permit belief.

There is no organized belief system going around proclaiming without evidence things like "religion is this or that". There is social and political engagement, simply based on the facts available to us in the world, that works against the influence of religion, but this has the same basis as engagement against pollution or child labor or meat consumption.

Perhaps some people live in a way that they can't differentiate these two things, but then I have to say that I find that problematic.
Aros
Forum-indlæg: 846
Opskrifter: 2
Område: Århus
Dato: 8/12 2012 09:54 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/12 2012 09:59

Spørgsmålet om ateisme er bedre eller værre, er ikke et man kan svare på, fordi spørgsmålet ikke giver mening. Ateisme er ikke en samlet ordnet idelogi,filosofi eller religion der er i opposition til andre livssyn. Ateisme er blot tanken at der ikke er nogen gud, og en ateist er derfor en person der ikke tror på gud. Ordet betyder i sig selv hverken mere eller mindre. Den ene ateist kan have et vidt forskellig livssyn, politiske holdninger, meninger og værdier end en anden ateist.

Man kan hverken sige at der er noget godt eller dårligt ved ateisme i sig selv. Man bliver hverken et godt eller dårligt menneske alene ved at være ateist.

Ordet Ateist definerer kun hvad en person IKKE er. Jeg tror ikke på gud, ligesom jeg heller ikke tror på nisser, det flyvende spaghetti monster,hobitter, smølfer eller spøgelser, Men det fortæller i sig selv ikke meget om hvem jeg er og hvad jeg står for.

Nogle ateisiter er imod religion og andre er ikke. At man ikke selv tror på gud, behøver ikke at betyde at man har et problem med dem der gør. Jeg er selv ateist, men kan ikke tale på vegne af andre ateister. Vi har ikke en fælles bog med regler og fælles værdier som f.eks kristne og muslimer har. Vi har heller ikke en fælles politisk ideologi, som f.eks kommunister, nazister, venstreorienterede, eller højreorientere. Vi er ikke alle medlemmer af den samme forening eller det samme parti. Vi deler ikke en fælles filosofi, eller noget andet for den sags skyld.

Vi har ligeså meget til fælles, som alle der IKKE samler på frimærker har til fælles.

Hvordan skulle en tråd om hvad der er galt med alle dem der ikke cykler, foregå? Det er sådan lidt det samme.

Folk begår ikke forbrydelser pga hvad de IKKE tror på, de begår dem pga hvad de tror på. En sådan tråd vil jeg finde mere interessant. Om det så handler om Jødedom, Islam, hinduisme, katolisme eller kommunisme. Eller andre religioner, filosofier, politiske systemer og ideologier.

Ulrik Smed
Forum-indlæg: 1539
Område: Århus
Dato: 8/12 2012 10:21

Fedt indlæg Aros, meget enig.

Analogien til folk der ikke gør det ene eller det andet er god nok, men i praksis stikker det noget dybere hvad man tror på og ikke tror på, i forhold til hvad man gør og ikke gør. Der bliver ikke konflikter mellem frimærkesamlere og ikke-frimærkesamlere på baggrund af denne handling. Men mellem troende og ikke-troende er faren større, fordi det involverer at man tvivler på andres troværdighed.

Troende: "Jeg har oplevet gud og ved han findes, tror du på gud?"
Ateist: "Hmm, nej ikke rigtig, har ikke set noget der tyder på han findes"
Troende: "Jamen jeg har set en masse der viser det helt tyderligt, du kan rolig tro på hvad jeg siger, han findes helt sikkert."
Ateist: "Well, jeg vil gerne selv opleve ham, før jeg tror på det"
Troende: "Så du siger altså det jeg siger ikke passer? Altså er løgn?"
Ateist: "Ahh, ikke sådan rigtig... well... måske på en måde..."

... krig og bomber og krudt og kugler...
Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 8/12 2012 11:06 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/12 2012 11:46

Hvordan skulle en tråd om hvad der er galt med alle dem der ikke cykler, foregå? Det er sådan lidt det samme.


Well put!

And yet, not quite, since the logic does work sometimes: "What is wrong with all those who don't recycle?" doesn't seem completely silly. We just need to ask if this is one of those situations where it makes sense to ask such a question.

Aros
Forum-indlæg: 846
Opskrifter: 2
Område: Århus
Dato: 8/12 2012 12:55

Ja det er sandt Jeff. God pointe, men igen at genbruge er at miljø politisk spørgsmål, det relaterer til hvad man tror på politisk og er et etisk, moralsk spørgsmål. At man ikke cykler er næppe et etisk eller moralsk emne ;-) . Ligeledes er det at være ateist etisk set neutralt. Hvis man skal afgøre om en ateist er et moralsk menneske eller ej, må man kigge på hvad personen ellers står for, filosofisk, politisk, konkrete handlinger, psykisk tilstand osv. Og evt kombinationer.
DR Lawrence Angelo
Forum-indlæg: 6
Område: KBH
Dato: 9/12 2012 16:10

EVERYTHING IS WRONG WITH ATHEISM

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