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Hvad er der galt med ateisme?

 

Filosofi, Etik & Religion

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Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 9/12 2012 17:00 | Indlæg redigeret den: 9/12 2012 17:49

Profile is "slettet" - smells a bit like Jimmie! :D

Anyway, I think there´s a profound truth to that video. Reminded me of: "“Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me... Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me” (Matt.25:31-46)
http://bible.oremus.org/?passage=Matthew+25




Jeff,
To be clear, atheism is not the belief that there is no god - it is the rejection of belief in gods.

Sounds like word play...

Atheism
1. the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism?s=ts



Interesting connection ;)

Every religious idea (is) "contagion" of the most abominable kind

Lenin, 1913

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate

Dawkins, 1997


Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 9/12 2012 18:24 | Indlæg redigeret den: 9/12 2012 18:26

Just what do you think "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings" means?

Those quotes are political or secular ethical statements, not statements from belief.

Again, you don't seem to be able to make a distinction between the two.
John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 06:09


Quantum Quacks:

Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 10/12 2012 07:07 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 07:09





Another sanity check by Leonard Mlodinow (theoretical physicist, co-author with Steven Hawking)
John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 08:47 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 10:05

Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 11:45 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 20:02

Know very little about deepak, and I´m not interested either... Still can´t help wondering if Dawkins is the right person to judge him for raking in money and drawing people to him... ;)

Btw, quantum physics is not the private domaine of atheists.



Jeff,
Just what do you think "disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings" means?

Well, I tranlate it to mean both,
1 - I believe a supreme being or beings don´t exist = the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
2 - I disbelieve (don´t believe) in a supreme being or beings = disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
Take your pick! I still think you are playing on words and being very selective in your definition. I´m not buying.

Those quotes are political or secular ethical statements, not statements from belief.

Again, you don't seem to be able to make a distinction between the two.

Funny that. If a believer made those kind of statements about atheism in a policial or ethical situation, they would be attributed (in part, at least) to their belief in god/religion. Yet when an athiest makes such statements about religion/non-gods, it has nothing to do with his "disbelief". Rubbish.

Was Lenin "ethical"?

Is Dawkins? The man´s a meat eater, for crying out loud!!! :D


Btw, here´s a well known example of the extremes of atheism. Note: I mean extremism :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ueQ-m5hPC2s
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jun/06/jerzy-popieluszko-polish-priest-beatified


Personally, I think we have more to unite us than divide us. Extremists on very side should be defied :)






John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 12:12

Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 10/12 2012 12:26 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 13:06

What divides us is the waste of time trying to come up with a few examples of so-called fanatical atheist evil-doing.

We don't even bother with the trivially easy task of coming up with a seemingly endless list of fanatical religious evil-doing that could be composed for just this past year - because it is so self-evident.

I don't care if you are buying the fact that atheists don't see themselves as believing that there are no gods - I am telling you that the vast majority of atheists see themselves not believing in gods.

Again, you seem not to be understand the case that one can live without beliefs having to do with gods, without belief of this kind at all.

I do not make the utterance, "I believe there are no gods", I make the utterance, "I don't believe in gods". I am extremely certain that if you ask someone who says they are an atheist, it is explicitly the latter kind of utterance you will get from them first. If pressured, they or may not give you an answer with regard to the former, but honestly, I don't worry about that one because it is a statement of supernatural belief and I am not interested in making these kinds of statements for myself.

So, it is I who is not buying into the age-old game of trying to get someone to make a claims that seem to prove a negative.

And yet, even though John's last post frames things (tongue-in-cheek) in terms of claims about what is not, I still love it in its utter irony and satire.
Ka-ching
Forum-indlæg: 83
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 10/12 2012 12:29

Earthling
Den video er bare endnu et eksempel på at tro skaber problemer. Det er tro der gør folk til ekstremister. Det giver ikke mening at skyde skylden på deres ateisme da fraværet af tro ikke er nok til at drive folk til at udføre onde handlinger. Det giver lige så meget mening som at skyde skylden på deres fravær af tro på julemanden eller det flyvende spaghettimonster.
John
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Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 12:35

John
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Dato: 10/12 2012 12:38

Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 10/12 2012 13:02 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 13:02

That last one about sums up my point, John!
John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 13:38

;)
Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 13:48 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 20:04

Jeff
If you want to carry on living in the delusionary world which denies "fanatical atheist evil-doing". Fine. Carry on. It´s your world and your lie.

I understand perfectly that one can live without beliefs having to do with gods. I never claim otherwise. Why would I? I have family members and friends who are athiests :)

My claim is about the deeds of a large precent of atheists in certain parts of the world. The deeds were rooted in an atheistic philosophy and the desire to impose their "disbelief" violently on others.

I think most intelligent people can see that.



John,
If you read through the thread, you will see that I have been very specific from the beginning and state SOME atheists... I never claim to be speaking about all athiests, nor do I ever claim that the type of atheism to be found in several of the countries I mention is the sum of all atheism. I have claim that it is part of atheism and its possible consequences.

Stalin = communists = atheist = evil is more your thing. Maria = believer = religion = evil, as I recall! ;) :D



PS: Let´s remember the first Christians were also called atheists! :)



Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 13:50 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 14:06

Ka-ching
Don´t agree. Oppressive regimes attack basic human rights, with or without religion. It happens in the name of religion and it happens without any religion. The second link (below video link) articulates that point very well.


The trouble, as I see it is human nature in general; the inability of some to repect the rights and dignity of others, and an innate tendence to dominate and put down through various violent means... Right now, even as I write, people are fighting and killing over flags, politics, housing, food, sex, money, power, drugs, whatever...

John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 15:02 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 15:04

@ Earthling
nor do I ever claim the type of atheism to be found in several of the countries I mention is all atheism. I have cliamed that it is part of atheism and its possible consequences.

Yeah, but you're still wrong. Stalin's evil is no more linked to his atheism than to it is to his moustache. There is simply no connection between the two.

Not so with the christians' and the jews' burning of witches. There, you can find a direct command in their religion to do so.

But atheism has no ideology or politics at all connected to it, so one can never track its subscribers' actions to it

(...except maybe NOT doing things that are inherently conncted to religion/superstition, like circumcising women, burning witches, performing human or animal sacrifice, and other horrible shit that we can do just fine without - I wonder what the other atheists here have to say to that...)
PlanteædendePlante
Forum-indlæg: 1188
Område: Århus
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 10/12 2012 19:14

Hej i stuen!

Man kan vel sige det sådan her:

Enten er ateisme

1) Ikke at tro (på Gud/guder)

eller også er det

2) at tro på ikke-Gud/guder, dvs fraværet af guder

Det Jeff fremfører er jo klart en 1'er. Og jeg vil give ham ret i at 1 er et krav for at man kan kalde sig ateist.

Men når man først er gået ind på 1 kan man jo derefter tage stilling til 2.

a) Nogen ateister vælger at, eller er tilbøjelige til at, tro på fraværet af guder (fordi de mener data taler for dette).

b) Andre ateister vælger at afstå fra at tro fordi de ikke mener at have argumenter hverken for eller imod.

Som det første er b) dem man normalt kender under betegnelsen agnostikere mens a) måske ikke har nogen betegnelse? Nogen gode forslag? Men jeg mener a) og b) må være underkategorier af ateisme og jeg kan ikke umiddelbart se flere underkategorier. Nogen forslag her?
Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 20:18 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 20:38

John
Stalin's evil is no more linked to his atheism than to it is to his moustache.

Who mentioned his moustache?! Anyway, tell that to the historians...

State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government, sometimes combined with active suppression of religious freedom and practice... The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism, in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism, stay away from churches and even vandalize them; this attitude was especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929-1939

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism



atheism has no ideology or politics at all connected to it, so one can never track its subscribers' actions to it

You think so? No tracks does not mean crime is not committed, only that people are good at covering it... These guys were notorious for that, but not good enough because the word got out...

Obviously some atheists don´t agree with you
Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism
Lenin



State Atheism
State atheism is the official promotion of atheism by a government, sometimes combined with active suppression of religious freedom and practice.[1] In contrast, a secular state purports to be officially neutral in matters of religion, supporting neither religion nor irreligion.[2]

State atheism may refer to a government's anti-clericalism, which opposes religious institutional power and influence in all aspects of public and political life, including the involvement of religion in the everyday life of the citizen.[3] State promotion of atheism as a public norm was first practiced during a brief period in Revolutionary France. Since then, such a policy was repeated only in Revolutionary Mexico and some communist states. The Soviet Union had a long history of state atheism,[4] in which social success largely required individuals to profess atheism, stay away from churches and even vandalize them; this attitude was especially militant during the middle Stalinist era from 1929-1939.[5][6][7] The Soviet Union attempted to suppress public religious expression over wide areas of its influence, including places such as central Asia.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism





League of Militant Atheism
The League of Militant Atheists[1] (Russian: Союз воинствующих безбожников); Society of the Godless (Общество безбожников); Union of the Godless (Союз безбожников)), was an atheistic and antireligious organization of workers and intelligentsia that developed in Soviet Russia under the influence of the ideological and cultural views and policies of the Communist Party in 1925–1947.[2] It "consisted of Party members, members of the Komsomol youth movement, workers and army veterans".[3]

The League embraced workers, peasants, students, and intelligentsia. It had its first affiliates at factories, plants, collective farms (kolkhoz), and educational institutions. By the beginning of 1941, it had about 3.5 million members of 100 nationalities. It had about 96,000 offices across the country. Guided by Bolshevik principles of antireligious propaganda and party's orders with regards to religion, the League aimed at exterminating religion in all its manifestations and forming an anti-religious scientific mindset among the workers. It propagated atheism and scientific achievements, conducted 'individual work' (a method of sending atheist tutors to meet with individual believers to convince them of atheism, which could be followed up with public harassment if they failed to comply) with religious people, prepared propagandists and atheistic campaigners, published anti-religious scientific literature and periodicals, organized museums and exhibitions, conducted scientific research in the field of atheism and critics of religion. The League's slogan was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism", which was meant to tie in their atheist views with economy, politics, and culture. One of the slogans adopted at the 2nd congress was "Struggle against religion is a struggle for the five year plan!"[4] The League had international connections; it was part of the International of Proletarian Freethinkers and later of the Worldwide Freethinkers Union.

The League was a "nominally independent organization established by the Communist Party to promote atheism." It published newspapers, journals, and other materials that lampooned religion; it sponsored lectures and films; it organized demonstrations and parades; it set up antireligious museums; and it led a concerted effort telling Soviet citizens that religious beliefs and practices were "wrong" and "harmful", and that "good" citizens ought to embrace a scientific, atheistic worldview.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_Godless


Militant atheism
http://www.conservapedia.com/Militant_atheism

Red Terror
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror





The Black Book of Communism
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm

The Black Book of Communism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism


State atheism is still official policy and is being practised today as I write, in North Korea, China, Vietnam and Cuba, to name a few places. Contact Human Rights Watch, the Red Cross/Crescent, Amnesty International or Church in Need, and ask them about religious persecution, and/or attacks on freedom of religion (which also includes the right to “disbelieve”) and freedom of conscience to know more.



Not so with the christians' and the jews' burning of witches

Sure, I go around advocating witch burning, female circumcision, animal sacrifice and human sacrifice all the time. Hadn´t you noticed? ;)

Anyway, the thread is NOT about Christian, Jewish or even religious-belief of any description. The topic is, "Hvad er der galt med ateism?" So don´t be changing the subject (same goes for Jeff when he takes about the news...) and don´t be calling on your friends to back you up. Fight your own battles and keep on topic! ;)



PS: Female Circumcision is about culture, not religion:
http://vegetarkontakt.dk/?-female-genital-mutilation-circumcision=96300




Earthling
Forum-indlæg: 1079
Område: KBH
Dato: 10/12 2012 20:25 | Indlæg redigeret den: 10/12 2012 20:25

Plante,

Atheism and Non-Religious Philosophies: Definitions
http://www.pluralism.org/resources/tradition/atheism.php

Negative and positive atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

John
Forum-indlæg: 1388
Område: KBH
Dato: 11/12 2012 09:24 | Indlæg redigeret den: 11/12 2012 09:25

John
Stalin\'s evil is no more linked to his atheism than to it is to his moustache.

Who mentioned his moustache?! Anyway, tell that to the historians...

What?! Tell the historians about Stalin\'s moustache? What the hell are you talking about?
And it was I who mentioned his moustache. Why do you ask?!
Did you understand anything I said?
atheism has no ideology or politics at all connected to it, so one can never track its subscribers\' actions to it

You think so? No tracks does not mean crime is not committed, only that people are good at covering it... These guys were notorious for that, but not good enough because the word got out...

Again, you didn\'t understand what I said at all. I didn\'t say that no crimes were committed by atheists. I said that their crimes have no relation to their atheism. Just like the crimes of left-handed people have no relation to their left-handedness.
Are you getting any of this at all?
Obviously some atheists don´t agree with you
Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism
Lenin

Wow... Just wow...
OK, let\'s assume that one cannot be a marxist without being an atheist - that it\'s part of the definition of the philosophy/idiology. So what? Does that mean that there\'s a link between atheism and the crimes perpetrated by marxists?

Let\'s imagine that Marx had defined marxism as including eating pudding on fridays. That if you didn\'t do this, you\'re not a Marxist. Does mean that theres is a connection between the eating of pudding on fridays and the crimes of Marxists? Does that mean that other people, who incidentally have pudding on a friday must somehow be a little evil, too?

One also cannot be a marxist without being alive. Does that mean that there is a connection between being alive and being a marxist? That because we\'re all breathing, we must be marxists?

Or to put it more simply: Does that fact that all dogs are mammals mean that all mammals are dogs?

You are seriously logically retarded.
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