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Earthling 2
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Dato: 6/9 2013 23:03 | Indlæg redigeret den: 6/9 2013 23:04

Your question is off-topic so I´m not particularly interested in pursuing it here. Besides, we´ve discussed it before... Check out my comments on these threads. I suspect we´ve also discussed it on one or two other threads...

Homovielse ?
http://vegetarkontakt.dk/?-homovielse-=119003&side=2
http://vegetarkontakt.dk/?-homovielse-=119003&side=3

"I´m shooting straight here..."
http://vegetarkontakt.dk/?-im-shooting-straight-here=124438





Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/9 2013 00:56 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 07:57

How is my question off-topic?

Did you not post on facebook and here the following statement yesterday?

What this politician does not tackle, at all, is the FUNCTION of marriage.


(Please note that the emphasis through capitalization is your original)

Honestly, Earthling, sometimes I think you just say canned stuff to make excuses for not wanting to respond with clarifications of your assertions.
Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 7/9 2013 08:57

The topic is about a law in Russia. My remark, which you quote above, is simply an aside, an observation. You can read what you like into it. We have talked about the topic before so I feel neither obligation nor inclination to expand, get into a debate or repeat myself. Like I said, read my comments on those links if you need a refresher.
Serenity
Forum-indlæg: 1675
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 7/9 2013 10:03 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 10:04

Hvor har vi det dog godt, når det vigtigste vi kan bruge vores tid på, er at diskutere en lov i et andet land, hvor vi slet ingen indflydelse har :D
Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 7/9 2013 11:14 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 12:18

Earthling,

How are your comments an aside when they are a reply to something that got posted on this thread. That means that you are calling the post you responded to an aside, however, you can't really do that, since it was another person who brought it as relevant for this discussion.

Fine, I will continue without you. I took the time to fish out one of your comments concerning "function".

s I understand it, marriage is a public commitment between men and a women which is of its nature open to the possibility of children. It is also the framework for protecting this realtionship and these same children. As such, I think it needs its own protection and recognition.


Similar to questions a US Supreme Court justice recently asked in an open hearing on the matter, I ask, does this mean that heterosexual couples who are past the child-bearing age or who are infertile should be excluded.?
Should we revoke the marriage licenses of couples who subsequently have medical procedures such as vasectomies, hysterectomies and "tying tubes"? How about those couples who for whatever reason choose to have a child with sperm donated from a man outside of the relationship (perhaps due to grave genetic disorders carried in the couples male part)?

And just what kind "own protection" do such relationships require? A different word in the dictionary? What benefit does that bring? And why does a separate noun surpass just the use of adjectives like "same-sex" or "heterosexual"?

What about these children?

Let's just take a look at how inherently hostile this kind of rhetoric you use really is.

Are you asserting that children should be reared by a man and a woman? In the case of adoption, are you also saying that only "traditional" marriages should be allowed to adopt? What about the case of single individuals? If you bar the right of adoption to single persons, are you also implying that children raised by single parents are in some way in less legitimate family setting than those with a father and a mother?

We live in a modern age wherein the nature of how we have and rear children has changed, technology and science as well as our own social organization have expanded the possibilities With our recognition of the legitimacy of relationships of many kinds, we are forced put aside antiquated notions that may or may not have had good purposes in the past, in all kinds of spaces.

Unfortunately Pandora's Box was opened long ago, much to the chagrin of conservative bigots. Like with the emancipation of black slaves, eventually they would also ask to drink from the same water fountains and to ride at the front of the bus.

Unfortunately, I highly suspect that your position conceals a religious and cultural bias that you know would draw nearly universal condemnation if asserted most plainly here. Unlike your position on abortion and choice, with which I do not agree, but which I believe is in some part informed by non-religious ethical thinking, your position on this matter seems to be little more than prejudice without much serious reflection and with no real foundation in facts and analysis.
Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 7/9 2013 14:33 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 15:30

Jeff,
I only skim read your comment, but I will tell you right now I am not going to take the time to re-read it, much less make you a proper response. Your comment is full of wild accusations and assumptions. Some of your questions would have been answered if you had taken the time to do a little more digging and investigating my comments on the links I gave you. Had you show me some respect, I might even have been persuaded to answer your other questions and given links to sources and relevant articles to support my arguments. But no, you take one partial-quote from me entirely out of its context (you´re good at that), then you proceed to jump-off the deep end!

How dare you speak about inherently hostile rhetoric! How dare you suggest that my position conceals a religious and cultural bias that you know would draw nearly universal condemnation when you´re not even sure of my position or its implications? And how dare you suggest that my position on this matter seems to be little more than prejudice without much serious reflection and with no real foundation in facts and analysis before hearing my arguments?

This kind of attitude from you is precisely why I did not want to enter into discussion, as well as not wishing to divert from the main purpose of this thread. I suspected I would encounter this kind of emotional response.

Now, get over your own self-righteous prejudice! I am not going to give it the time of day.



Shana
Forum-indlæg: 78
Område: KBH
Dato: 7/9 2013 15:02 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 15:05

Hvor har vi det dog godt, når det vigtigste vi kan bruge vores tid på, er at diskutere en lov i et andet land, hvor vi slet ingen indflydelse har :D

Hvad prøver du at sige, Serenity? At det er trivielt at diskutere noget der ikke går ud over os selv? At vi er forkælede, eller hvad? Fordi umiddelbart kommer det lidt til at virke, som om du synes det er et trivielt problem, som vi ikke burde lægges så meget energi i at beskæftige os med.
Serenity
Forum-indlæg: 1675
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 7/9 2013 18:15

Bill
Jeg mener som regel nøjagtigt hvad jeg skriver. Det er ikke skrevet i en kode, som først skal knækkes, før man forstår, hvad jeg mener. Det er ikke et trivielt problem, men måske spild af tid at snakke om, da ingen af os hverken alene eller i fællesskab har magten til at ændre noget som helst i Rusland. Men lige nu er det åbenbart meget vigtigt, at have en mening om det der sker i Rusland, og om en uge diskuterer vi måske noget andet, som vi heller ingen indflydelse har på, fordi det lige er det, som er populært at snakke om på det tidspunkt.
Aros
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Dato: 7/9 2013 18:28 | Indlæg redigeret den: 7/9 2013 18:30

Menadian, jeg er fuldt ud enig med dig. Alle mennesker er ligemeget værd, og har lige ret. Stadig er jeg ikke ligeglad med om sexualitet og kønsidentitet er biologisk og medfødt eller ej. Det er ikke kun homosexalitet der er medfødt. Uanset om man er hetro, homo, eller bi, så er man født sådan. Grunden til det ikke er ligegyldigt er fordi der stadig findes mennesker der hævder at visse former for sexualitet er forkert, unaturlig, samfundskadeligt og hvad ved jeg. Når folk forstår at sexualitet er biologisk, giver det ligeså lidt mening at diskutere om det okay, om hvilke rettigheder de skal have osv, som at diskutere om det okay at være rødhåret, og om rødhårede skal have de samme rettigheder som andre. Og så synes jeg generelt at videnskabelig fakta er noget man skal tage seriøst. Men er helt enig, rent moralsk gør det ingen forskel. Mennesker er mennesker, og har lige ret.

Cvetok27:Jeg har altid været tolerant over for homoseksuelle. Kender selv nogle pæne og søde mennesker.. havde endda en veninde hun var lesbisk - det betyder intet.

Men kender også nogle mænd, som har fortalt om ubehagelige oplevelser i deres ungdom.. pga homoer.

Hvad mener du med ubehagelige oplevelser pga homoer? Taler vi om overgreb eller voldtægt? Hetrosexuelle mænd voldtager ogå hetrosexuelle kvinder, derfor dømmer vi ikke hetrosexualitet i sig selv til at være forkert. Sexualitet og umolske sexuelle handlinger er to forskellige ting, og både hetro og homosexuelle kan begå sexuelle forbrydelser. Så hvad er pointen her.

Cvetok27: Takket være denne tråd har jeg forstået årsagen til min deltagelse her samt mine reaktioner..
Det er kommet op for mig at jeg har store men pga. jeg og min familie har erfaret vold fra "ikke-traditionelle" i Rusland, nemlig fra nogle homo og pædofile, jeg husker nu fire tilfælde, sagerne burde faktisk meldes som kriminelle.. Dengang var jeg (og familien) hjælpeløs og krænkelserne (ikke hændelserne) blev så med tiden fortrængt .. men deltagelse i denne tråd har vist mig at et sår har siddet derinde, og det er kun godt at såret er kommet op og jeg håber jeg kan bearbejde det nu.


Der er stor forskel på at være homosexuel og at være pædofil. Pædofile er psykisk syge mennesker, og at forgribe sig sexuelt på børn er den værste forbrydelse der kan begåes. Beklager at høre at der er foregået krænkelser og overgreb. Sexualitet og sexuelle handlinger er ikke det samme, og at en homosexuel person har voldtaget dig eller andre i familien, er ikke lig med at sådan handler alle homosexuelle. At du/i er vrede på den enkelte person bag krænkelserne er naturligvis berettet, men lad det ikke gå ud over folk der ikke står bag de handlinger. Håber du/i får bearbejdet det.
Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 8/9 2013 06:46 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/9 2013 06:49

Earthling,

I think your refusal to address the important issues, which statements of the kind you have made raise, clearly expresses your apathy towards the consequences of such a bias being reflected in law. If you cared then you would do something about it.

'Nuff said.

Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 8/9 2013 08:26 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/9 2013 08:33

And you, Jeff, have NO IDEA of what I am or am not doing in that regard, or how much reflection I am putting into the whole issue. I already told Jacob K that I was unsure. He had the good manners to respect that and not push me any further - and he was the one who posted the original video about which I made the observation.

My words to Jacob K:
To be honest, I´m not sure about the whole issue of gay marriage. I think we all need to be able to have an honest and respectful discussion about the nature of marriage and surrounding issues. I appreciate that homosexuals sometimes feel hurt and alienated. I also know that there are homosexuals who disagree with and argue against the concept of gay marriage.


You, on the othe hand, keep pushing and pushing, and when that doesn´t work you take my words entirely out of their original context, come with all kinds of assumptions and try and put me in a bad light. That, in itself tells me a great deal and reflects very badly on you, I´m sad to say.

You want a dialogue with me, you respect me and you put your own prejudices, assumptions and ugliness aside. Otherwise, no go, I´m not playing. And hostile threats on other threads won´t do you any favours either. Pathetic...

Now I´m taking time-out because this will get us nowhere...


Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 8/9 2013 09:51 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/9 2013 14:15

You pushed yourself by posting things like that which you did above concerning the "function" of marriage.

To clarify, what I mean by "doing" is that you would do something about it on this thread. With that clarified, we can ignore the rest of that paragraph.

W.r.t. what you are doing on this thread: you did the opposite of not knowing where you are and reflecting and blatantly reiterated the position you have w.r.t. "function".

I am not making hostile threats. I am playing with open cards. Whereas I actually have given you the benefit of the doubt in many settings where religious biases clearly could be thought to inform your positions (for example, w.r.t. abortion and choice) and have actually tried to make sure that people did not merely respond out of prejudices without giving your arguments consideration, simply based on a more secular viewpoint, I have little reason to do that now, since rather than examine how problematic views of the kind you espouse are, you have closed off that debate as an "aside", etc.

And once more, you start lamenting about whether you get respect, bla bla bla. I really don't care, I neither respect you nor disrespect you.

To be clear, I don't want dialogue with you. I am perfectly happy to address your posts depicting you in the third person henceforth. I really don't care if you play. This isn't facebook. My agenda is to shut down any heinous views when they appear. This is no different than it is for many others here.

Sometimes some of us become friends here. However, I feel relatively certain that there are several people here who will find it difficult being friends with someone who can insinuate that children need to be protected from non-traditional relationships because these do not "function...".
Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 8/9 2013 14:58 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/9 2013 15:04

Jeff,
I made an observation in a response to a video posted by Jacob K. This is it.
Likewise, because a pastor might not agree with "gay marriage", it does not follow that he is homophobic or unloving towards homosexuals. That´s a cheap shot. What this politician does not tackle, at all, is the FUNCTION of marriage. Neither does he ask the pastor where he stands on civil partnerships/contracts.

Interestingly, this comment provoked no reaction when I first posted it in a group on FB, a group which includes homosexuals and a lot of LGBT activists.


Again, in response to Jacob K´s comment to me, I said that
To be honest, I´m not sure about the whole issue of gay marriage. I think we all need to be able to have an honest and respectful discussion about the nature of marriage and surrounding issues. I appreciate that homosexuals sometimes feel hurt and alienated. I also know that there are homosexuals who disagree with and argue against the concept of gay marriage.


I told you I did not want to expand on this thread because it was off-topic, ie. I did not think it was the right place. I gave you links which included several comments I´d made previously in the belief that you would do me the courtesy of reading all my comments and leave it at that as it was another thread, another topic. But what do you do? You take one PARTIAL comment from me and quote it ENTIRELY out of context, then you come at me with a whole lot of assumptions, nastiness and false accusations. I really deserve a lot better than that from you, Jeff.

I explained that the kind of reaction with which you responded is another reason I did not want to go into the topic here on this thread. The topic of the thread is about a law in Russia, the mistreatment of homosexuals (as in possible infringement of the right to information; and violence towards homosexuals in Russia - which I abhor). I felt this thread was already fraught with tension and misunderstandings. I don´t think it is a good place to start discussions about marriage, gay or otherwise. I actually don´t want to hurt anyone.

I have not closed off the debate. I never said I was not prepared to discuss the topic elsewhere. I never got the chance. I never said I was not reflecting on the issue. Neither did I say I was not open to learning. I have already learned something on this thread, re: epigenetics. I was more than prepared to consider the possibility of discussing the topic calmly elsewhere.

Until I read your comment above, I had even been considering making a presentation of what I think and why and starting a new thread called simply, "Marriage". However, I am also reluctant do it because of the way I have been received in the past with regard to issues like abortion, even though I ALWAYS make my case based on biology, psychology, philosophy, psychology and human rights and never bring religion into it. I simply don´t expect to get any kind of fair hearing in this kind of debate either. I am not sure I am able for more of what I encountered before, especially given your present hostility.

Your last three paragraphs above are just plain nasty, particularly the last one. I never made any such insinuations, nor would I. I might also add that if the above comment of yours is an example of the kind of friendship that´s on offer, I don´t want it.

You really crossed the line this time, Jeff, and if you were half the man you seem to think you are, you would admit it.







Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 8/9 2013 22:44 | Indlæg redigeret den: 8/9 2013 22:57

Nah, forget it... You´re obviously not man enough! ;)

I´ll get back to you later, when I have some time...



Jeff
Forum-indlæg: 1943
Område: Sjælland
Denne bruger har i år '14 doneret penge til at holde Vegetarkontakt.dk kørende.
Dato: 9/9 2013 05:58

Um, I don't monitor VegKon 24/7 for your posts...

Nonetheless, I am not really going to admit anything. On the other hand, I am not going to take this matter to task, since you have stated that you are not willing to discuss it and I am not going to play cat and mouse. It is, however, not off-topic, since the discussion on this thread has been very much about how "non-traditional" relationships are view. Sorry, that dog just won't hunt!

When you have taken the time to think about the matter, as you say you do, enough to realize just how egregious statements about the "function" of "marriage" and that it is not just a word we are talking about (and again, how does a word "protect") instead of just polluting the world with ill-considered drivel, then find an occasion to air your thoughts. Until then, I am going to try to get the awful aftertaste of your previous posts on the matter out of my mouth.
Earthling 2
Forum-indlæg: 633
Område: Andet
Dato: 9/9 2013 09:56

That sounds more like you at the moment: polluting the world with ill-considered drivel... Indeed...

And now, I am going to try to get the awful aftertaste of your previous posts on the matter out of my mouth. Ugh...

I´ll be back elsewhere at a later date. Count on it! And get ready to swallow some of your words ;)








Serenity
Forum-indlæg: 1675
Område: Nordjylland
Dato: 9/9 2013 10:38

Marcus
Forum-indlæg: 3074
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Administrator
Dato: 10/9 2013 06:17

Trods det store fremmøde til #ToRussiaWithLove i tirsdags og den flotte Pride i København i går er det vigtigt at huske at hate crimes og diskrimination af LGBT-rettigheder desværre ikke kun er en by i Rusland, men også en kamp der skal kæmpes herhjemme.


https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=533788443341623&set=a.531923693528098.1073741828.529124290474705&type=1&theater
Aros
Forum-indlæg: 848
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Dato: 19/9 2013 03:54


Get Educated About Homosexuality:

-Martin-
Forum-indlæg: 291
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Område: Århus
Dato: 23/9 2013 15:44

Aros,

Alle mennesker er ligemeget værd, og har lige ret. Stadig er jeg ikke ligeglad med om sexualitet og kønsidentitet er biologisk og medfødt eller ej. Det er ikke kun homosexalitet der er medfødt. Uanset om man er hetro, homo, eller bi, så er man født sådan. Grunden til det ikke er ligegyldigt er fordi der stadig findes mennesker der hævder at visse former for sexualitet er forkert, unaturlig, samfundskadeligt og hvad ved jeg. Når folk forstår at sexualitet er biologisk, giver det ligeså lidt mening at diskutere om det okay, om hvilke rettigheder de skal have osv, som at diskutere om det okay at være rødhåret, og om rødhårede skal have de samme rettigheder som andre. Og så synes jeg generelt at videnskabelig fakta er noget man skal tage seriøst. Men er helt enig, rent moralsk gør det ingen forskel. Mennesker er mennesker, og har lige ret.


Kriteriet for accept må vel være, at folk må indgå i de relationer, de har lyst til, hvad enten det er biologisk eller kulturelt betinget, uden at samfundet blander sig i det (Jeg taler her udelukkende om personer over den seksuelle lavalder, ellers bliver det for indviklet for mig).

Det kan bare hurtigt komme til at lyde noget i retning af: "Nåja, han/hun er født sådan, så det kan han/hun jo ikke gøre for!". Forstår du, hvad jeg mener? Min pointe er, at det ikke bør handle om, hvad man er i biologisk/'naturlig' forstand, men at det afgørende må være, at vi insisterer på den enkeltes borgerlige og kulturelle frihed til at forme sit liv, prøve ting af og gøre som han/hun føler for, sålænge det ikke skader andre.

Det er lidt en detalje, men jeg synes, det er vigtigt alligevel.
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